The Power of Community in Overcoming Addiction with Lyndon Azcuna
This week, Lyndon Azcuna returns to discuss the complex realities of addiction, personal crises, and the transformative power of healing within community. Matt and Lyndon unpack the many layers of addiction, exploring not only the behavioral aspects but also the emotional and psychological roots that often fuel these struggles.
Lyndon shares why true healing goes far beyond managing symptoms; it requires understanding the deeper issues of the heart and building genuine, supportive relationships.
Transcript
Welcome back to the Live well podcast. I'm Matt Wilson, your host, financial advisor, coach and business owner at my practice here at Cornerstone Wealth Services in South Bend, Indiana.
And I'm so glad that you're here. This podcast aims to help those navigate life's greatest challenges and change in life as well.
What we want to do today is we want to provide you with a deep dive into something that affects so many individuals and families, addiction and crisis, and how healing is possible. My guest today is someone that I deeply respect, Lyndon Escuna, a counselor, community leader.
He's a man of faith and he's a great friend and he's helped countless people break free from the cycles of addiction and pain. And Lyndon, welcome to the show.
Lyndon:Glad to be here, Matt.
Matt:You know, obviously you're back and appreciate you taking some time with us here. And you know, we talked about this earlier and obviously this, this podcast is, is. Can be a little lighter. It can be.
We don't intend to be so deep here all the time, but I think this is a subject that we wanted to come back and talk about and explore because Lyndon has so much experience with it. I am not a trained counselor. I am not a psychologist. I am somebody that's just trying to live well.
And what I love about your tagline is you're trying to help people not only choose life, but to choose hope. A hope filled life.
Lyndon:A hope filled life.
Matt:And live a hope filled.
Lyndon:Live a hope filled life.
Matt:And I think that's just exactly what we're trying to do here in the show is in the podcast is to enable people with the tools for a healthier, wealthier life. But it begins with yourself. It begins with honest.
Lyndon:Absolutely.
Matt:It begins with really just trust that a process can help provide process can, can change, can change you. You've walked a lot of people through crisis. So I was going to ask maybe at the beginning here, could you share maybe a story or two.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:Someone who's been in deep need and found that.
Lyndon:Yeah. As.
Lyndon:As your people listeners will find out. Life Plan does that all the time. Life Plan is a place where we want people to find hope. In fact, our tagline is where hope begins.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:Because people need hope and people have crisis, pregnancies, messy lives. We all have messy lives. And sometimes we need people or not sometimes we regularly need people to walk us through those.
So Life Plan is that generally as a ministry and we offer that service to everyone personally. Because of my failure early on in my marriage and my wife and I.
Lyndon:Healed from that process, we have over.
Lyndon:I'm sure, over a decade now. We've been helping couples with their marital problems. We've had dozens of couples already go through our hands.
And I want to say, first of all, not all of them were successful. Okay. You can only lead to the horse, to the water, but you can't make him drink. But we are.
My wife and I lead the One Hope Biblical counseling at our church. That's been going on now, I think, six years. But before that, we've counseled women and men in their account.
And right now we have, I think, three clients that we're working with.
And one story that came to us three or four years ago now, this couple came to us because the wife was tired of the husband being on pornography, and he got caught. And so they came and she was ready to. If you don't change, you're out of here kind of thing.
Matt:Right.
Lyndon:It was her second marriage and his second also, maybe third, if I recall. Anyway, we went through time together, counseling, addressing the issue.
Lyndon:And I met with the guy individually also.
Lyndon:So it was a couple. And then we met individually. I met with the man helping them.
Lyndon:Process through the brokenness, why he. What triggers happen, where it comes from, knowledge about it.
Lyndon:And I really love it. He is. One of.
His favorite book was Dopamine Nation, so he kind of understood all of a sudden, the trigger that caused that and the addictions that we have in our culture. The woman met with my wife and.
Lyndon:Helped her through that process.
Lyndon:They went through a book also together.
Lyndon:On how pornography hurts a marriage and.
Lyndon:How you can find forgiveness. And so individually meeting, then we met together, then we also found out through that process that they had some broken relationship skills.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:Communications, things like that. Holding resentment. The guy had a long history of hurts from. From the past marriage and all that that came into it.
Lyndon:So that analysis, and I will say this, that analysis and our relationship working through the materials, they overcame.
Lyndon:Yeah, they overcame.
Lyndon:They're now, I think, two. Two. Two and a half years after, from that fall, from that issue.
Lyndon:And they're overcoming.
Lyndon:And I'm not saying they're perfect, but they relate to each other. Pornography is gone.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:Other.
Lyndon:They're better communicators. They work together well now, and their marriage is healthier. And I will say again, that's not.
Lyndon:All success there we've had. I'll just say my wife and I work with a couple for 18 months every week. Wow. This was a tough situation. The guy was not willing to change.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:So there are successes like that. And also Equal amount of failures because we can only lead people to a.
Lyndon:Certain point, God will have to change them.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Lyndon:I say it to the men just so quickly here. I say to the men, when I addressed pornography with a two things.
Lyndon:Number one, Christ changes you, not me.
Lyndon:And number two, come to the light.
Lyndon:Meaning the light. Be open. We cannot lie to each other because lying just breaks the relationship up.
Lyndon:I can never trust you. You can't trust me.
Lyndon:There's no lying come to the light.
Lyndon:We've always been hiding behind a tree since the Garden of Eden, anyway. Yeah.
Matt:You know, I maybe mentioned it in the. In a prior episode, but we were talking about this beforehand, and it comes down to selfishness. And, you know, I've never been that.
I've never been selfish.
Lyndon:Yeah, yeah.
Matt:Let me raise my hand first. You know, my wife and I, we've been married, you know, 16 plus years. Great.
And I can tell you that sometimes you might get each other, but you don't get yourself.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:And once you finally kind of get yourself, then you can break those walls down. In other words, stop with the facade, the lies, whatever it might be. And then you can rebuild together.
And what you rebuild together could be stronger than anything. And so sometimes those things come into your life to. To teach you. But we're going to talk about some of that, too, where it's not just. Maybe it's.
It's exposure to things when you're younger. Maybe.
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:Maybe it's. And I'll let you speak to that a little bit more. But, you know, I. I would just say.
And I would echo, I think, what we said last time or in a prior episode, where, boy, what a world it would be.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:If everybody focused on the needs of others and their own character rather than focusing on everybody else's character and their own needs.
Lyndon:Right.
Matt:And I don't know, that probably is the root.
Lyndon:Yes. Oh, yes, Matt. 100% of all our counseling session, the issue is somebody's selfishness or both.
Selfishness or hurt from the past that causes selfishness. 100%.
Matt:Do you get people that one wants to work on it and the other one just doesn't unfortunately, have to.
Lyndon:Both have to.
Matt:There has to work on it.
Lyndon:We cannot work with a couple who both are not one or one party is not willing to work on it.
Matt:And. And I'm gonna reiterate, I am not the expert here, and I also know that.
That I've got a long way to go, but I can tell you this, that my wife and I are probably closer than Ever great at this point and Right. You know, it's not without challenge. It's not without.
Lyndon:Absolutely it's.
Matt:But she's my greatest love.
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:And you know, at points you just wonder if you could ever get there.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:And I'm sure the couples are feeling that way too, I guess. What role did community. And you mentioned counseling and also the gospel, how it played into those stories.
Lyndon:Yeah, very simple.
Lyndon:You know, this couple did not go to our church, but they were interestingly.
Lyndon:In the process of going, finding a.
Lyndon:New church and we invited them to.
Lyndon:Our church and they started going to.
Lyndon:Our church and started getting involved in.
Lyndon:The community of the church.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:So it was like a reset, a.
Lyndon:New community where they had a bad community previously, they're better community.
Lyndon:Now they're getting more involved. So there's connection there.
Lyndon:They see us regularly that way also no longer in a counseling session, but as friends because we need people to walk with people. I, I say this, what's unique about life plans, ministry. And I, I, I, I emphasizing this there that people need relationship to change people.
That's very important. We need someone else to help us if we want to change. Yeah, change doesn't happen. It only goes to a certain point if you do it alone.
But, but when you have somebody else to walk alongside you, that's when real change happens. It's regards to poverty. People want to know about this. When Helping Hurts. It's a great book on helping people on poverty. Relationship is key.
Relationship is key. People in isolation are broken and continue to break and not heal because they're isolated. And so relationship is key.
And fortunately for this couple, they got connected with the church, were there coming alongside now as friends, not as counseling partners.
Lyndon:Anyway, relationship is key. Community is key. It applies everywhere. And going back to the Bible just quickly, Parakletos, that's the name for the Holy Spirit. Come alongside us.
Matt:From your experience, what are the most common struggles that lead people? I mean, you mentioned isolation, but I think that's probably. Would you say that's a byproduct?
But what would be the common struggles that lead people into crisis and addiction?
Lyndon:I'll go back to Augustine, City of God.
Lyndon:This is a classic work, 5th century classic work.
Lyndon:And he says this is our problem. He says mankind has a peace pyramid of desires. Okay, God first, family, your spouse, your family, the world, things material.
And he says, what has happened, what happens is when our desires, the good desires become inordinate desire, wrong order. So we put material things above God or individuals above God. It's like that idol worship. So good things.
Things become important things or ultimate things.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:That's when addictions start to happen. When we put our hope on something else to make us happy that cannot fulfill us. Yeah.
That is bottom line reason why people fall into addictions because pick, pick entertainment, pornography, drugs, anything that soothes us, we go to instead of God. So you can. You can just put anything on the line, whatever.
Lyndon:People.
Lyndon:There's 100 million idols that we follow.
Matt:Well, and I can say too, that sometimes it could be noble things.
Lyndon:Right, Exactly. Things that become inordinate.
Matt:And I think sometimes, isn't it people that you mentioned, very specific things. And it's my understanding, again, I'm no counselor psychologist. I'm just trying to help people live well. Yeah. And understand this stuff. Yeah.
But sometimes those people, they walk through that and they struggle with a particular issue like alcohol or pornography or whatever it might be, and they think that's their only sin.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:Right. It's like, oh, this is the only thing I deal with. You know, it's like if I just beat this or got rid of this issue.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:Then I'm good.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:And it's like, whoa, you. You're not really touching the root. And the root issue sometimes is shame. Trauma.
Lyndon:Trauma.
Matt:And then you have isolation that gets thrown in. But, you know, I guess you mentioned kind of the root cause. And. And I think James 4 comes to mind where he says you fight and quarrel among you.
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:Because you don't even know what you want. Yeah.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:You know, you. You don't even have an idea in your heart what you truly want. And you get. You're getting everything out of order.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:And so I. I guess I don't know if you have anything to add to that or.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:God makes sense.
Lyndon:God. God designed us that he's number one. When we put something above there, that cannot carry the weight of what God. Like, for example, our spouse.
It's not everything. They'll always let us down. People let us know. Not that they want to, but our expectation. They can't meet our expect. If we put our children.
Sometimes when we put our children above God, like they're the most important thing they can't carry that We. We call, we make, we spoil them. We don't know how to do that.
When we put fame, when we put beauty, when we put money as ultimate, it can't carry the weight that God can only carry. That's why Augustine said you have disordered loves.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:You put their good things, but they're not in rank order, they're at the bottom when you put them above something else, like if you put your money above your spouse, tell me what happens after that. You work 100 hours.
Matt:Yeah, I had. Unfortunately, I just had a situation this week where.
And I didn't mean to offend them, and I felt terrible, but I mentioned that, hey, look, my wife and I were great. Ashley and I were doing. Doing wonderful.
And I credit launching this podcast and just really taking a look at myself, you know, why do I want to do this? And I want to live. Well, I'm trying to understand. This is as well. But anyway, I mentioned that about the podcast. And. And she said, you know, we.
And she's going through a lot of grief. She lost her husband. And I'll spare you the details to protect her. But long, short of it is she said she had regrets.
And I was like, well, everybody does. I have regrets. And I felt terrible because the next thing she said was, we never got there. I never was close to my husband. We.
It got better when the kids got older, but we never were close. It was his career, job. Yeah. And then it wasn't even me.
Lyndon:Right.
Matt:Or God.
Lyndon:Right.
Matt:It was just. That was all. It was wrong order. Right order. Right. And. And I felt. I was devastated.
I felt bad that I even mentioned anything, but it just made me go back home and hug my wife a little tighter. And I said, I don't. I am so thankful that we're here and we didn't have to get to the end. And I don't really know.
Sometimes it's just really difficult things. It's challenge. It's upbringing.
Lyndon:It's upbringing.
Matt:You don't have the tools.
For instance, I mentioned my dad in the first episode, and the older that I get, the less hard I am on him because I look at the challenges that I face and the things that I have to overcome and all the things that come at me, and I go, oh, my gosh. Like, he just didn't have any tools.
Lyndon:Right. Right.
Matt:To deal with things. You know, and maybe to some extent, neither of my parents did.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:But I'm just not as hard on them.
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:Because of that. And, you know, I think that if we can provide some tools to help people, that.
That's the goal of the podcast, is to just help people have the resources, tools, point them in the right direction. And you believe. And I understand this because you're coming from a biblical viewpoint, a worldview, and I know that some people may not get that.
I did have a question, though. Before we get to kind of the path to overcoming.
Lyndon:And I want to give your clients a tool. Go ahead, finish.
Matt:Okay, so my question to you, and you mentioned that you have those people in church. What would you say to people who say, boy, church is just full of hypocrites. Why would I ever go to a church?
And boy, they're going to see my dirty laundry? And what would you say to those people who refuse to be part of a community in maybe a church?
Lyndon:Yeah, I, I understand that some of your listeners may have a bad experience from the church. I just want to start first by saying. That's not God's intent.
Lyndon:Christ created the church as a community that is supposed to help and redeem people first. Redeem people. Not perfect people.
Lyndon:Okay. It's not perfect people. In fact, I always use the churches for hospital. It's for sick people. It's like a hospital. It's for sick people.
Help that people come to find hope, encouragement now because we're all in the process. Sometimes we step in each other's toe.
Matt:Some farther than others.
Lyndon:Yeah. Some prouder than others. And so.
Lyndon:But give the church a second chance.
Lyndon:There are good churches out there that.
Lyndon:Encourage that support that you can find community. We all need somebody. And the church is a place where broken people.
Lyndon:My church is Redeemer Church right there in Niles. But there's a lot of good churches.
Lyndon:In the South Bend Niles area.
Lyndon:Lots of good churches. And we can make a list of those if they want.
Matt:Yeah, we'll put that in there, probably in the show notes, just so that they know.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Lyndon:Your church is a great one. Gospel City Church. Yes.
Matt:Well, Gospel City. And now we attend Calvary.
Lyndon:Calvary.
Matt:Calvary Church over and south.
Lyndon:That's right.
Matt:And we're, we were there about every day and it was like, oh, why don't you just come here? I was like, well, you're probably right. You know, we did different things with the kids and whatnot. So what are you going to mention?
Lyndon:One of the process that I help men that I'm working with, with their struggle is I let them take the geneal gram. Gene Gram is a, is a test.
Lyndon:That you can take and you look at and you. It asks a lot of questions about history. How did your parents deal with problems with crisis, with addiction. So, you know about.
This was very helpful with that man that I, that I was talking about earlier. He started realizing why he behaves a certain way because his father, he learned it from his father.
Or where alcohol and alcoholism may have a Connection. So you learn about your background, how they handle problems, even deeper issues, and how they dealt with. With problems.
So when you learn that, you learn more about yourself because everything is caught.
Lyndon:Most things are caught. That's culture.
Lyndon:That's how we upbringing.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:So that's a really helpful tool. I didn't realize that my family saw.
Lyndon:Got rid of problems by getting their kids away from the problem and not taking responsibility.
Matt:Okay, Right.
Lyndon:So we have to learn from our background anyway.
Matt:So the path, overcoming for somebody who's listening today, who feels stuck or who, who loves somebody who's struggling, where do they start?
Lyndon:All right, this is something that's really important and I. This is a principle that I use in helping people change. And here it is. Okay.
Lyndon:Instead of focusing on what we want to change, instead we should focus on what brings about change.
Lyndon:Let me state it in another way.
Lyndon:The problem is that we often focus on what we want to change instead of focusing on focusing on what actually produces change.
Lyndon:Okay. Yeah.
Lyndon:Instead of trying to fix the outcome without paying attention to the process that really leads to transformation. Okay. So instead of focusing on the problem, I have an addiction or I have an anxiety problem, we focus on what brings about change.
Okay, let me start with the biblical perspective. And I'm going to give some science behind this too. Biblical support. One of the key verse in the.
Lyndon:Old Testament with regards to change is Proverbs 4, 23. It says this and. And listen to the statement, above all.
Lyndon:Above all.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:Guard your heart for everything, for the, for everything you do flows from it. Guard your heart for everything that you do flows from it. Or how about this in the New Testament, Romans 12, verse 2.
Do not be conformed to this world, the anxiety, the issues of the world, but be transformed by the renewing of the mind. What changes the anxiety? The thing by testing you have discern so forth. And then how about this one? John 15. I am divine, you are the branches.
Whoever abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit. For apart from me, you can do nothing. Okay, so a couple of illustrations on this aspect.
Lyndon:If we're, if we're a farmer, we.
Lyndon:Just don't focus on. Hey, Branch, you need to focus. You need to grow, you need to.
Lyndon:Produce by looking at it, you know.
Lyndon:No, you're supposed to take care of the root, water it, fertilize it, and put good soil on it. Or another way of looking at it. You want to repair a crack in the wall. So what do you do? Do you just paint over it? Or do you work on the foundation?
You work on the foundation. In other words, instead of focusing on the issue, we focus on the things that change the issue. You focus on the heart.
Okay, you listeners, now I'll give some practical illustration. Your listeners heard my story, and I didn't know it. I had. I walked away from my marriage. Just quickly walked away from my marriage.
I had a lot of issue about me, and I didn't know how to fix myself. But somehow God convicted me to study the book of Romans one verse at.
Lyndon:A time for three and a half years.
Matt:Wow.
Lyndon:I focused on what would bring about a heart change instead of focusing on my now, I worked on my marital things. But it was the process that. The thing that changed me was what I needed to work on. That's why I would work with men.
I would tell them, where are you in your walk with the Lord? I will tell you 100% of the men that struggles that we counsel, their discipleship is weak at best. Okay.
So focusing on what brings about the change instead of the issue. Or how about this? Men who are struggling with pornography, we just have to stop pornography. But their hearts don't even care about God.
We need to focus on heart thing that really brings about the change. And then, in fact, I say to them, stop focusing on the pornography. You know what God's calling for you is holiness.
When you focus on the holiness, that changes everything. So did you get that point?
Lyndon:Yeah.
Lyndon:Work on. Don't focus on what needs to be changed, but on the process that brings about change.
Matt:Yeah. Do you have good soil? Do you have good roots?
Lyndon:You have good roots?
Matt:Do you have cracks in your foundation?
Lyndon:Yes. Character.
Matt:You know what?
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:And. And I think, too, that there's a great lie.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:That money satisfies that. You know, pornography satisfies or whatever it is. Alcohol satisfies. But we know it doesn't.
Lyndon:It doesn't.
Matt:And, you know, maybe they. Maybe it does for a time.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Lyndon:Oh, yeah. Oh, it will. Yeah.
Matt:And you talk about dopamine. I think that book would be a great. And we could talk all day about that. That's a whole other podcast today. But I think that you. You're exactly right.
It's. Do you know what's really going to satisfy you?
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:Do you believe it or have you never experienced it or witnessed it? And I think so many people. Tell me if I'm wrong, but it just. Maybe they just never saw anybody really experience that kind of satisfaction. Right.
They were always moving from thing to thing to thing to thing. And maybe some of those things are even noble.
Maybe there's somebody that's listening or watching and they're giving their 150% effort to their job and they've got a family that they're missing and they've got kids that they're missing.
Lyndon:I want to emphasize, again, I want to. That's absolutely true.
Lyndon:I want to emphasize instead of focusing on what needs to be changed, we focus on what brings about change. That's key. Okay. What produces real change.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:Because then we're only working under the band aid.
Matt:Yeah.
Lyndon:We're not checking the wound inside. We're only working on the symptoms. I believe that's one of our key problems in our world today. We're just fixing symptom.
Lyndon:Okay.
Lyndon:How do you fix this? How do you fix this? Well, what about your leadership integrity? If you want to apply to business or discipline. Okay. In fact, if you don't.
If people don't believe me. James Clear in his book Atomic Habits reinforces this. He says this. He says this.
Outcomes are about what you get, process is about what you do, identity about what you believe.
So he's looking at the process and what you believe now, that if you want to bring about change, you got to focus on the foundational stuff and seven Habits of Highly Effective People. Internal Change. Stephen Covey so the Bible figured it out long time ago. When above all else, guard your heart, for it is the wellspring of life.
Matt:Right.
Lyndon:Let's not focus so much. I mean, yes, you focus on it, you undress, you address.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Lyndon:You have an addiction problem, but you have a deeper problem inside. And let's change the whole heart. Yeah, let's change the whole heart.
Matt:You know, I mentioned this in my second episode where I unpacked the core four, which is know how to give, know how to receive.
Lyndon:Yeah.
Matt:You know, Know how to say no and know when to ask for help. Yes. And this is what we're trying to do is provide resources for people to. In a safe way, to ask for help in a trusted way.
Lyndon:Yes.
Matt:And you know, when I was talking about giving, sometimes it wasn't, or I made a point that, look, sometimes it's just about our mindset and the mindset of why we're going to be giving.
Lyndon:Yes. And wrong mindset, wrong way.
Matt:It's like, how much money people. When I deal with individuals, sometimes it's like always about how much do I have? How much do I have? And I go, what does it matter?
Yes, it's about what it does for you. It's about how much it produces. And, and it's very similar in that we're just humans and, and we, we always kind of focus on the absolute.
And a lot of times it's in the what's beneath and, you know, what's the inner workings. Somebody can get mad about their value dropping, but it's like, is their income changing? No. Is, is. Are things guaranteed? Yes.
Lyndon:Are they at peace?
Matt:But why, why are they not at peace when they, they have every reason to be.
Lyndon:Right.
Matt:And they just can't get off of the, the branch.
Lyndon:Right.
Matt:They, they, they don't look at the roots, they don't look at everything else and the wind's gonna blow, they're gonna lose branches or whatever, but they, they, if they have strong roots, it's going to. Going to last. And I think that's really what we're talking about. Right?
Lyndon:That's it.
Matt:What's going to last?
Lyndon:What's going to last.
Matt:And so I think what we need to do because I think Lynn, and this is fantastic and helping understand, unless you have anything else on, on how people change. I kind of want to get into that a little bit, but I think we need to break it up here.
Lyndon:Sure.
Matt:And so we'll call it for, for this episode.
And, and then we're going to come back and we're going to dive into not only understanding the cycle of addiction, but let's talk about how to break that cycle specifically. And kids. How to parent their children.
Lyndon:Oh, yeah.
Matt:From falling into addiction and protecting them and then navigating that pain and in, in the, the kind of healing journey. So in other words, how do you help people stay the course when it's really difficult?
So let's unpack that, you know, for now, I just want to thank you for joining me again. This is, this is very needed.
I mean, even just a few of the little nuggets that we had and I hope the listeners that, that you had something to chew on here and maybe the courage to, to start building a life that you actually need. Not just a life that you want, but, but both that you want and need.
And if this episode really helped you, then please subscribe, leave a review, share it with a friend or somebody who may need to hear some of this stuff that's either dealing with crisis or addiction or who may need help with dealing with somebody who is. And then obviously, you know, this is.
I'm not just a podcast host and I'm my own business owner through Cornerstone Wealth Services here in South Bend. And I just want to help people live as well as they can.
And so if you are curious about some of the things I mentioned, whether it's making your money work for you or living a life with purpose and unlocking that purpose and you're concerned about your future and your plan, then I can help. So reach out to me@matt wilsonfinancial.com we have a podcast page there. You can submit, show ideas, or just love to hear from you there.
Till next time, keep showing up, keep being out, honest. And remember, you can do this and I'm here to help live well.
