Finding Purpose in Sorrow with Dan Duncan

Matt: 00:00:00

Hi. Welcome back to the Live well podcast. I am Matt Wilson, your host.

I'm a financial advisor, business coach, financial coach and business owner here at my practice at Cornerstone Wealth Services in South Bend, Indiana. Today, we're talking about navigating some of life's biggest changes and building a healthier, wealthier and more meaningful future.

And it's been a very personal discussion here. We're talking about grief, how to live well through it and not avoid it.

I'm joined again here by my friend Dan Duncan, pastor and full time Army Guard chaplain, Army National Guard chaplain. He's been through some incredibly hard seasons from personal loss and also dealing with those with PTSD and even suicide and suicide prevention.

So those are some of the darkest of thoughts that people can have.

And I know Dan has navigated that with gold star families, and we want to provide some resources and provide some, I guess, attention and awareness to this issue. Dan, I heard the other day, and this was from our FDA commissioner, that there are 8,000 veterans a year that commit suicide, that die from suicide.

And I just, I can't even believe that. I, when I heard that, I just, my jaw dropped. That's more than the Iraqi war, all of the soldiers in the Iraqi war combined.

And I think it's a very worthy subject.

And you're, you're helping those families who have been victims of this terrible, terrible thing, but also you're helping people navigate those thoughts.

And I want to get into that, but first I want to go back to, and I know we lost our audio in the prior conversation, but I want to go back to what we were ending on.

And then I want to move into the discussion about veterans and soldiers and the things that you're helping and then maybe provide some practical tools and resources for people to use. We've got some here that we can talk through. But what would you say to somebody?

And I know that last time it was very personal and it was probably tough for you to walk through that.

What would you say to somebody that would say that they feel like they're stuck, maybe in sorrow or how do you support somebody, a friend or a loved one who's going through that kind of grief?

Dan: 00:02:50

Sure. Thanks, Matt. And again, it's great to be back with you. And it was tough the last session and I hope your hearers.

Matt: 00:03:00

Were able.

Dan: 00:03:01

To understand that grief makes you very vulnerable. And it's important to be vulnerable. It's hard to be vulnerable. But the only way to handle grief is to go through it. You can't avoid it.

And it gets tough, it gets hard.

But there's joy in the journey when we can see that adversity of any kind, whether it be a loss, a loss of a loved one or some kind of personal trauma, that grief is just part of our story, and it's what we choose to make of it. And, you know, my. My point in the last session was not to sugarcoat it, not to.

I think oftentimes we either try to minimize it, which leaves people thinking that somehow there's something wrong with them because they don't feel okay, or we just. Just float away in the darkness and we just let go and we give in and we let it crush us, and we can't do that either.

And so really, to get honest and get real and to get vulnerable, to get down in, as we say, to sit in the suck. We say that in the army all the time with people is important.

And I'm glad that if I was able to help sit in somebody's grief with them in the last session and share some of my journey, I think it makes it worthwhile. So I do appreciate that. But, yeah, being stuck, I tell you, I've been there. I felt stuck. I felt like the sun would never come back out again.

I felt like living well was beyond my reach, my grasp, because this event had just wounded me deep within my soul. And that's really what we're dealing with, is a wounded soul. At that point, you're gonna maybe feel lost or feel stuck.

And that's where, again, bringing people into your life, reaching out, not isolating, not withdrawing, not giving in, but also being patient. And, yeah, when you feel stuck, you have to bring people into your life.

You have to make small goals that are attainable and move in the right direction. You need to be patient with yourself. It's not going to just vanish overnight. It'll get better, and then you'll find things trigger.

Just give you an example.

When my daughter was expecting Christopher, there was a park just right around the corner from my house that they were kind of redoing, putting in new playground equipment. And so I told my wife, I said, I can't wait to swing little Christopher on that new swing, and started calling it Christopher's Park.

And now I drive by it every day, right? And for a long time, it was hard to drive by that park. And even still today, when I drive by it, I think of him.

But what you want, you don't want to stop thinking of your loved one. You don't want to stop thinking of the grief that you are experiencing because the loss means something and it's important to hold on to that.

But what you want to do is be able to heal from the emotions and heal from the trauma so that you can get on with life and that'll always be a part of you.

But it can be a, it doesn't have to be a defining moment, it doesn't have to be a soul crushing thing because you can grow from it and grow out of it and grow through it and then you can use it in a way to better yourself and also the lives of those around you.

And I think that's important to keep in mind as you go through that journey of feeling stuck is just to know that there is life on the other side of it and you just are in that, that middle ground of trying to figure that out. So take courage and be patient is what I would say.

Matt: 00:07:23

Yeah, that's great. I think that so many times people just want the pain to end and they just want to wake up tomorrow and it all to be fine again.

And what I'm hearing you say, and this may or may not be what you're communicating, but sometimes it's not that the pain goes away. It just. You get to a place where you can redirect and use the pain. Yeah.

And get to a place where you know it's now there's purpose in the pain and, and that drives you and that moves you forward and maybe while you're in the middle of it, you just can't see it, you just can't feel that you don't understand it. I will share with you that when my, my dad died and I mentioned this in the first episode, but my dad died when I was about 15, 16, I think I was 15.

And I remember when my grandfather said, hey, your father died, he just said it like that gets out of the car and I'm working at somebody's house. Anyway, the lady just stood there like what just happened?

And I had to leave and I get in the car and I just remember that small voice still small voice, you know. And I believe it was the good Lord. I mean, I don't think a 15 year old thinks this way. I could be wrong.

But you know, I heard him say, look, I'm taking him to do things in your life that I couldn't do otherwise. I'm taking your dad to give you a better chance and to do things that I just couldn't do.

And I have hung onto that all these years later, 30 plus years later, I've hung onto it, thinking to myself, there is purpose in all of this. And I see that in your life. I hear that communicated from you when I hear you talk, and I see how now it's playing out for you.

Dan: 00:09:31

Sure, that.

Matt: 00:09:32

Look, you may not have dealt with some of the things that your soldiers have had to deal with, the folks in your brigade or whatever it might be, but grief is very much grief, and pain is pain. And I think that there has to be some things that have grounded you through all of this, and now you're starting to see the purpose in all of this.

But has there been any kind of, maybe scripture, a prayer, a truth that has grounded you when things are hardest? And I'm sure there's waves, too, right?

Dan: 00:10:13

Absolutely. It comes and goes in waves. And I think you just always got to be learning and growing.

It's kind of like you kind of come up and touch it, and then you back away from it for a while and then you come back up. It's like a cycle. And I think that's important.

think of a scripture, Isaiah: 57:15

And he almost is unreachable in that capacity because he's so far above us and we can never understand Him. And yet it tells us that that high and lofty one dwells with those that are lowly and of a contrite heart. And so he exists on the extremes.

He's high and lofty, but he's also down in the gutter where life falls apart. And I think you talk to people who have navigated grief.

I know certainly it's my testimony is that it's in those times of brokenness, those times of failure, those times of defeat and heartache and loss where God can come to us and he can heal us. He doesn't take it all away overnight, but he comes to us and he says, hey, in the midst of our grief and our pain, I'm here.

You know something similar to that voice you heard, a still, small voice, just a. Maybe it's a thought, maybe it's a feeling, maybe it's a confidence that shouldn't be there, but it is.

Where God just says, hey, I know life is difficult. I know life is hard, and I could take it all away, but I'm not going to. But I want you to trust me and Job. Job even had that thought.

When he utters the words, though, he says, if God were to kill him, he was still going to trust in him. Meaning that the worst thing that could ever happen is not going to cause him to stop trusting in God.

And I think we need to have that outlook to come to our loss and our grief and say, it might be an overwhelming thing, it might be a soul crushing thing, but there is a way to come out stronger on the other side. And I think in the process, we can learn a lot about God as well.

Matt: 00:12:51

Yeah. As we learn about ourselves.

I heard it put once that some of the strongest relationships, the strongest marriages are marriages that were both people have gone through some deep things and some very difficult things and, and you almost have to tear the wall down and then you rebuild together. Or you, you, you kind of come to a place where you're like, maybe you get other people, maybe you get all that, but you don't really get yourself.

You don't get how you navigate it, you don't get how you've responded to it, how it's affected you. And I think, you know, it just comes back to the awareness of, hey, you know, this isn't, maybe this isn't healthy.

You know, this, this podcast is all about a healthier, wealthier life. And, and just maybe you're not responding to it because maybe you just haven't looked at how you've responded to it.

And, you know, obviously, you know, and, and I would expect you to continue to bring out scripture and, and things like that as an army chaplain and as a pastor. I think that church, a lot of times they get a bad rap for just saying, well, just accept it. Just know that God is love.

And they know the platitudes, but they don't know the principles and they don't know that there's a human element here of a process. And I think that what you're sharing is that, hey, look, there is a process to navigate.

Make sure that you have kind of an awareness of where you are.

Take stock of that, find somebody or some group or whatever that can help you, kind of maybe name what you're feeling and maybe put some words to how you're responding to it and then understand that although the actual, I guess, emotions don't necessarily go away, you can redirect that pain, you can redirect it and it can be something that's really good for you and help others and help, you know, am I wrong in any of that?

Dan: 00:15:13

No, you're exactly right, Matt. And I think, you know, again, talking to the. About the church, and maybe talking to the church is, Is not necessarily. I, I don't want to.

I don't want to say it as a rebuke or as a judgment or a censorship. Sure.

Matt: 00:15:28

You know, but.

Dan: 00:15:29

But I think the church could grow in its ability to. To meet people where they're at and where they're hurting. I think a lot of times we do have the, the platitudes, and we.

We look for the quick fix, and that's just not. That's just not biblical Christianity.

I think it comes from our Americanized version of Christianity where, again, we want to be fixers, we want to build things, we want to have success, and we don't have a place in our life for tragedy, we don't have a place in our life for pain and suffering. And so we're quick to dismiss it or to say somebody's just being judged for their sin or they brought it on themselves, or they just need more faith.

They just need to trust God. And really what all that is signs of is that maybe the person approaching it that way, number one, doesn't know what to say.

They want to help, but they don't know how. And also they're afraid themselves that something like that could happen to them, and they don't know how they would respond.

And it's just another type of avoidance that I think sadly leaves the church in a hamstrung position to really help people that are going through grief.

And I found getting out of necessarily the church world and getting into the chaplain world, there's a different dynamic there, and there's that ability that the chaplain has, the ability to enter in and walk alongside people, just by nature, that role. And I've been very excited to be a part of that.

Matt: 00:17:16

Yeah. And I think without going through some of this, you might not be as effective.

Dan: 00:17:21

Very true. Very true. And again, a grief story is unique. You can't quantify pain.

You can't put it on a chart and say, well, my loss was much more severe than your loss, so my grief is worse than your grief because it's, it's unique to the individual.

Matt: 00:17:41

Right.

Dan: 00:17:41

And so it can be messy.

And again, my story is my story, and it's important for me to tell it, but it's not my point to trump another person's story with my story and say, oh, well, you know, get this. You know, it's not a one upmanship.

Matt: 00:17:58

Right.

Dan: 00:17:59

When you, when you use your story to help other People that are hurting. It's. It's an identifiable thing. It's. It's saying, hey, you know, I. I get it. I. I don't get it completely, because I'm not you.

I'm not going through what you're going through, but I'm not going to judge you in your pain, because I've had pain, and I didn't want people to judge me in my pain. And so I'm not here to say I know exactly what you're thinking, feeling. I'm not here to tell you what worked for me is going to work for you.

I'm just here to say I've been where you're at to some degree, and I just want you to know I'm here as you figure it out. I'm here to help. I'm here to just sit here, you.

Matt: 00:18:43

Know, And I appreciate that. Sometimes you just need the presence, somebody's presence. You mentioned two things.

I want to highlight this, and then I want to talk about gold star families, and I want to talk about your efforts there. Say somebody says when they go through pain, they go through trauma or whatever it is, it's a bad situation, loss of a loved one, whatever it may be.

What do you say to somebody who says, boy, God is judging me. And they're angry. What do you say to them?

Dan: 00:19:15

Sure. Anger is a very common response to grief and pain.

And I think you can go through the steps of grief, and I'm sure, you know, those are important things, and, you know, it's all over the place, but you kind of hit those things. And anger is one of those things they talk about in grief. And, you know, I was angry.

And there was times, even as a pastor and as a chaplain, you know, it dawned on me one day, I was angry, and I was angry at God. And I really struggled with that.

When I realized that, I felt guilt, I felt shame, but then I realized something, that God was strong enough to take that. Yeah. And I remember the time I was driving alone in a car, and I just said, you know what, God?

I'm a little upset about this, and I just need you to know it. I know you already know it because you can read my heart, but I need to admit it to you.

And not really, and not really in a confessional way, like, I'm sorry, I'm angry. I mean, I was, but it was like, you know. You know what, God? Right now, right now I need to tell you that I just.

I don't appreciate what happened, and I don't appreciate you know, the way it happened. And I don't know how I feel about it. And I feel bad that I feel this way, you know, but. But this is just me. This is just me where I'm at right now.

And you know what? I almost felt like God said, hey, it's okay. I get it, you know?

Matt: 00:20:50

Yeah.

Dan: 00:20:51

That's where you are in your limited understanding. And I'm not mad at you for that. I'm not. I'm not going to judge you. I don't, you know, I don't hate you for that.

It's because God knows I'm not the strong one. He's the strong one.

Matt: 00:21:06

Correct. Right, Right.

Dan: 00:21:08

Going through grief is not us proving to God how strong we are. Going through grief is giving God the opportunity to show us how strong he is. And yeah, we can succumb to anger, we can give in to bitterness. Right.

You know, again, the cliche things can make you bitter, they can make you better. But the truth of that is really there. That again, when I admitted that to God, I didn't really know where it was going to go.

It was really a vulnerable time for me. And I remember thinking, you know what? I don't know if I even want to follow Christ anymore. I don't even think.

I'm not sure I even want to be a pastor anymore. I don't know how I can pastor and feel this way, but I had to work through that. And God met me in that.

And God wrapped his arms around me and said, you know, it's okay to feel that way, but I'm going to get you through it. Don't give up on me. You know, don't write me off. Don't give into the bitterness.

Be angry, but sin not be angry, but trust me, you know, like, how many times does a kid get angry with their parent because he doesn't give them what they want? Right.

Matt: 00:22:32

Sure.

Dan: 00:22:32

And then as they grow and mature and understand and they realize if their parent had given them that thing, it would have been. It would have been more harmful for them.

Matt: 00:22:41

Devastating. Yeah. Right. Yeah, that's a great point.

And I think that you're really hitting on so many important points to remember, but it's hard when you're angry to really think clearly. And maybe that would help somebody just to know that, hey, being angry is okay.

Dan: 00:23:01

Sure.

Matt: 00:23:02

It's just a matter of, okay, maybe there's something better for me. And maybe it was. I mean, I think it was just God's grace in my life that he allowed me to think that. And he told me that.

I don't know that I would have come up with that on my own, but he told me very clearly, hey, there's a reason. And then I clearly saw things like iron themselves out. And we could talk a whole other podcast on that.

I don't want to be respectful of our time, but as you were talking, I think too that there's one thing here that is important for people who are maybe counseling others, a tool or something to remember, and that is sometimes when you are listening to someone, if you start sharing your story, be mindful that you don't want to take away from their grief. And it's not a one upmanship of, hey, look, I guess I'd be curious on your thoughts to that.

I mean, you kind of touched on it, that you just need to be there for people and maybe not necessarily just share everything that's gone wrong in your life, but over time, maybe they can get a sense and maybe you tell your story like this and then they know, hey, look, he's been through it. And certainly that's just probably something to remember.

But I think sometimes people want to say, well, I've been through it and you can get over it. And there's a lack of empathy maybe. Yeah. So what do you say?

Dan: 00:24:38

Yeah, we don't want to be insensitive. And again, it's definitely not one upmanship. It's not, hey, that's nothing.

You haven't suffered the way I've suffered or even, you know, using it as an opportunity to make it about you. So I'm very careful and very intentional when I work with people who are suffering in grief. It's not that I can never say, hey, you know what?

I've been through some things myself, and sometimes I've even said to people, hey, I know you're going through a real rough time. And the reason why I know that is I lost my grandson after he was born. He lived 12 days.

And I say it in a way not to be like, oh, get them to feel sorry for me, but get them to realize, look, sometimes life sucks, sometimes life is tough, sometimes difficult things happen to everyone.

And so we can enter into that person's grief because now we have that shared bond we have that they begin to realize, oh, okay, maybe they can help me. And when you can say it, in a sense, to build a connection and a bridge to a person, then I would say telling your story is appropriate.

But if you're not doing it to build that bridge, if you're doing it to brag on your pain or you're doing it to somehow minimize the pain they're in, then it's not going to be effective and probably better just to not mention it at all. And so you got to be very careful. And then even then, it's just like a quick, hey, you know what?

I don't know what you're going through, but I've gone through some things and then turn it right back around to them again, and don't sit on that and tell that story and try to make yourself a martyr in any way, shape, or form. None of that's going to help them, and it's really not going to help you either.

Matt: 00:26:45

Well, I appreciate that, and I think those are some good reminders.

And maybe for those who are helping people navigate grief, kind of know your limitations and also know that it's more important maybe to have presence. So let's spend just a few minutes here.

Dan: 00:27:05

And that's one of the things we call it in the army as well, is a ministry of presence. And that's really a chaplain's role.

And so I like the fact that you talked about presence there, because truly, ministry of presence is really what we're after when we talk about grief counseling.

Matt: 00:27:26

Yeah, you don't need to be an expert, but just being there listening. So, no, that's fantastic.

Dan: 00:27:36

And if you don't know what to say, you don't have to say anything. Just be there, let them talk and listen, and you'll get 9/10 of the way there.

Matt: 00:27:50

So I want to move through this in a few minutes here.

And we talked about suicides specifically, but gold Star families explain what that is to maybe folks who don't know what that is first, and then maybe what resources exist for them.

Dan: 00:28:09

Sure. Well, gold Star families are an exclusive club that really nobody ever wants to be a part of.

And if you're a Gold Star family, it means that you've lost a soldier in your immediate family, that they've perished in the line of duty. And that's something that our country recognizes with great honor.

You know, we put a large premium on honoring the fallen of our American armed forces.

It's one of the core responsibilities of an army chaplain, is to make sure that we honor those who have paid the ultimate sacrifice for our freedoms that we enjoy as Americans. And yet part of that sacrifice is given by their families. I like to look at it this way.

You know, when a soldier gives their life, his or her life for their country, they pay that sacrifice all at once. They cash that check, but their family pays for it a little bit of a time for the rest of their lives.

Every day they make a deposit, every day they pay a little bit more.

So it's a one lump sum game for the service member who passes away, but it's a death by a thousand paper cuts for the existing surviving family members. And so I'm thankful that our country recognizes that and honors those people and tries to be there for them.

There are chapters of what's called Survivor outreach Services. It's a government run program where there are resources for counseling and grief care for surviving family members of fallen soldiers.

And I'm just in a few weeks here get to be something I've done for the last several years as an army chaplain is to be able to go to this camp where these gold star families will come and share their stories. We recognize, we have a memorial ceremony where we recognize their loved one and we share stories. We do grief counseling workshops.

And it's just a good opportunity, it's free of charge for the, for the Gold Star families to come. And so I'm not sure if every state has those things, but every state has a survivor Outreach service chapter.

And so I would just encourage people to kind of google survivors outreach services and find their state and get some contact information and see what's out there to kind of help them navigate through that process.

Because we need to take care of our service members families because they're the ones that continue on and they need to know that their loved one's not forgotten, but they also need to know that they're not forgotten and that their country appreciates the service members sacrifice, but also the sacrifice the family continues to give.

Matt: 00:31:30

It really is just an honoring of the entire. I mean your family is your unit and you know, you hit the nail on the head there. And I appreciate what you do with those Gold Star families.

Let's shift it a little bit because you have walked alongside soldiers facing depression, trauma, suicidal thoughts, again, 8,000 a year die by suicide in America. And I just, my heart breaks for that. What are some signs people should look for in loved ones who are struggling?

Dan: 00:32:09

Yeah. So Matt, you start talking about what does it look like? What does somebody who might be struggling with thoughts of suicide even look like?

And I think typically the assumption, which is unfortunate because it's rarely the case, but the assumption is that you'd be able to see it, that there would be, you know, some very clear outward signs and there can be, you see somebody really distraught. It could be an indication of that, but oftentimes they hide it. Oftentimes you can't tell at all.

They act fine, they act like everything's great, but inside they're dying. Inside they're really, really struggling. And so, you know, one of the things you have to do from the get go is not be, not be bashful.

In the army scenario, I like to use a formula called ace. Your ace card, the ace up your sleeve. And what does that stand for? It stands, first of all, A stands for ask.

We think, boy, if I ask that question and they're not in that place, will I put them in that place or give them ideas? That's not the case. What we need to do is we need to be bold enough to say, hey, I care about you and I just want to make sure you're safe.

And so I'm not trying to insinuate anything, but I'm just going to ask you very directly, do you have thoughts of self harm? Are you in a place where you're struggling with these things? Are you losing hope?

And that's a tough, tough question to ask, but it's a very important question to ask. And so as you deal with people, if you see somebody that anything you wonder, just bring it up.

Just say, hey, because I care about you and because I want to make sure you're safe, I'm just going to be direct here. And if they're like, oh no, I'm good, then take them at their word. Don't probe or, or dig. Let them bring it up when they're ready to.

But at least what you've said to them is I care about you. And that's what the C stands for in the ACE model is care.

Don't be so focused on your world and your agenda that you can't stop and see somebody in need and come to their aid. And, and this is something that anybody can do.

You don't need grief counseling, training, you don't need to have a degree in psychology or anything to care for somebody and do an intervention. In fact, a lot of what we see in the interventions that are successful happen from what we would call in the army the battle buddy level.

The side to side a friend seeing another friend in need and just caring. And then that's the E in ACE stands for engagement. Engage with them, help them, direct them to resources and be with them through the process.

It doesn't matter.

It could be a bit inconveniencing at times, but we're talking about someone's life, we're talking about somebody who at that point really needs us more than, than anything else. And so allow yourself to be inconvenienced and engage with the individual.

And until you can pass them off to someone who's maybe a little more licensed or has the resources to really get them that deeper help that they probably need at that point. And so that's really kind of, in a nutshell, how I would recommend somebody would approach that. You can. Parents can do it with their kids.

You know, teenagers these days, sometimes they're going through things, you know, so it can be used in any environment, but it's kind of what we. What I use that works well in the military setting.

Matt: 00:36:14

Yeah. So just having the awareness, you know, seeing if there's something, just being aware of their general condition.

And maybe you see some patterns, maybe you see, you hear a few fractures, phrases here and there.

And, and, you know, don't be afraid to speak up, ask, then care, and then escort, you know, make sure that they get to a place of safety for themselves. And, you know, I, I can certainly understand gone through some, having gone through some deep valleys at times.

And maybe most men do, they question a lot of things. And this isn't just a male problem. This is all across the board.

And so I think, just like you said, having the awareness, having the courage to engage them with the ace card, if you will, would be phenomenal.

So two things you mentioned children, and there is a direct corporate correlation between the dawn of social media and the rise of social media and the usage of it and suicide. There is a very clear correlation.

I mean, I think we all know it can be a very dangerous place with social media, and I think that's for another podcast. But, you know, I would say with children, how, how can you help navigate parents to. What would you say to parents to just, you know, see some signs?

What, what should they look for? And then what would you say to parents who might be concerned for their kids? Sure.

Dan: 00:38:03

Well, that's a great question. I would say, first of all, again, just don't, don't worry so much about being their friend. Be their parent.

And sometimes, you know, that means if you see them isolating in their room, you need to have that conversation and you need to be aware of what they're doing on social media. Sometimes parents feel like, well, I don't want to invade their privacy.

And yet at the same time, your job is to create boundaries for them and help keep them safe, both on the online world and in real life. And so they're counting on you. And sure, they may balk at it, they may resist it, they may even get angry about it at first.

But children need parents, particularly in this world. All those things you described, Matt, about social media and the world we live in today, I mean, it makes it daunting for parents.

How do they navigate that? But at the same time, it's daunting for the children, and.

And the parents need to not shirk that responsibility, but to take it on so that their children and their teenagers can have that support that they need as they figure out life in this crazy online world where everything appears perfect and everybody else's life is great and they're wondering why theirs isn't. And then there's these dares that happen, and.

And all of this is done shrouded in secrecy of a screen on a phone and can get away from them really, really quickly. And so, again, parents need support.

They need courage and boldness, but they also need resources and help and people they can talk to because it's a daunting task to really navigate some of this. And it is tragic to see that it even brings the need to talk about suicide in a context such as children and teens and online activity.

And so, yeah, that is a great topic and certainly one that should be explored deeper in future podcasts, probably with people more versed in it than I am.

Matt: 00:40:22

Well, certainly, and I think would be remiss just not to talk about a little bit, but we've been talking about grief.

We've been talking about people going through some deep valleys of their own, and, you know, maybe there's been things that have happened to them, decisions, whatever. Maybe they're recovering themselves.

Dan: 00:40:43

But.

Matt: 00:40:45

What do you tell somebody? I think this is a difficult thing.

What do you tell somebody who has, I guess, been, I don't know, lack of better word, maybe a victim of somebody who's taken their own life in their lives. You know, what do you tell somebody? I'm sure there's got to be deep struggles associated with that. How do you counsel them?

Or what would you say to somebody who's experienced that?

Dan: 00:41:10

Yeah, that's a very complex question. I would say guilt is the number one feeling a survivor of suicide would. Would be facing.

And they're going to ask themselves questions, you know, why didn't I see it? I should have stopped it. You know, I should have known. And, you know, that can be a very traumatic thought pattern to have.

And I think the important thing to just to realize is that you may never really understand what led your loved one to take their life. But you can't pull the blame and put it on yourself. You need to realize that was their choice and their decision and theirs alone.

And then seek the help you need to heal from the loss that you feel and find a way to use that experience to learn from it and grow from it and try to find a way to help others through it. And that's really the best focus you can have. And yet it's grueling, it's tasking and it's a very painful experience to have.

And I think though, the common thing that I've seen as I've dealt with people who are in that situation is that they just wonder what more they could have done. And, and really in all reality, the answer is, is nothing.

Matt: 00:42:41

Yeah, it's hard and it's. I would just encourage people to seek the help that they need for that. But I mean you've seen it, you've dealt with it.

Dan: 00:42:52

Absolutely.

Matt: 00:42:53

And so, so let's, let's talk just for a moment here and let's provide maybe some organizations that are available for folks as not only for military, but let's just focus in on the military right now.

What organizations would you recommend to support obviously for suicide prevention and for counseling and things of that nature, but what organizations would you say would be near and dear to you?

Dan: 00:43:27

Yeah, so two things, two organizations come right to the surface for me.

The first one, when we talk about suicide prevention and suicide, just bringing awareness to the problem of military suicides in particular, I think of the website and the organization Stop Soldier Suicide and they're a veteran owned, veteran run organization. And I had the privilege a few years ago to do a 50 mile ruck march fundraiser for that.

And thankfully at my age I didn't have to do all 50 miles at once. But it was all through the month of October that I just went out and ruck marched.

For those that may not be aware, with military activities or ruck marches where you go on a hike and you carry a pack, typically between £35 or more and you just go, you're just walking at a brisk pace. Sometimes people jog or at any rate you're just, you're out there carrying a pack like a soldier would, you know, doing a soldier thing.

And it's become a activity that brings soldiers together and creates awareness and whatnot. So I was able to do 50 miles and raise money for Stop Soldier Suicide.

People were able to give online and support my cause and that was very fulfilling for me.

But Stop Soldier Suicide is really focused in on addressing just the heightened risk that soldiers have in this area of suicide and how can we bring that risk down to at least common with the rest of society so that soldiers aren't at greater risk for suicide than the general population. And so I would highly recommend people check out their website, get involved if they can and want to donate to them.

They're very good about the donations, going for the cause and not for other purposes. And so they rise to the top of my list when it comes to suicide prevention.

And then as far as a crisis hotline, if you know somebody who is struggling with this and you don't know where to turn, there's an app you can get called 211. It's like 91 1, but 21 1. And you can then by your geographical location, you can find resources for crisis helplines.

There's all sorts of things there. And it's good, I think pretty much for anybody. And I have it on my phone. And you can find counselors, you can find all sorts of resources there.

And then more, again, more geared to the military side of things. A website called Military One Source offers a lot of resources of a variety of things up to and including crisis intervention for suicide.

And so those are the things that come to the top for me. I'm sure there's other quality organizations out there. The important thing is, is to not wait until you need them to find them.

You know, do your research, find some good quality resources, have them in your phone and when you need to use them, don't hesitate.

Matt: 00:46:54

Well, I certainly appreciate that. I did not know about the 2on1 app, so thank you very much for that.

And we'll put those details in the show notes and there's a few other organizations that I'll put in the show notes as well, geared more towards military, the military as a whole and, you know, some apps and things of that nature. So we will for sure highlight the Stop Soldier suicide organization and Military One Source as well.

So thank you so much and I appreciate just your heart. And you know, it hasn't been easy. And I would say I'll ask you to give us maybe a parting thought of maybe something to give our listeners here.

But let me ask you this question though first, and that is if you could leave our listeners with one thought about living well through grief and maybe helping others that you might know in your life to live well through grief, what would that thought or that encouragement be?

Dan: 00:48:04

Don't give up. Don't quit.

Matt: 00:48:07

Don't give up.

Dan: 00:48:08

Life gets hard. You know, I Mean grief. Grief isn't something we want to come, but it will come. I think everyone will face moments of grief.

Some will face really difficult moments of grief. Others might go long stretches without really feeling like they face a lot. But grief is a weird beast. It's a weird animal.

You think you're getting on top of it and then it surprises you. It comes at weird moments. Sometimes you feel like you're healing and then other times you feel like it's all falling apart. But just don't ever quit.

Don't give up. Find the help you need. Reach out, Create a community. Trust in God. There's help out there. Just don't give up.

Because better days will come and that's an important thing to keep your mind. You'll be different, you'll be changed. It can't go back the way it was, but it can get good again. In fact, it can get great again.

Better than you ever imagined. And so that's, that's the hope you got to grab onto and find the way to move forward.

It's going to be slow, but just be intentional and keep, keep fighting. And you know, on that note, my wife and I have been praying for our daughter and our son in law who lost their baby.

And you know, we got to talk to him just, you know, last night by the time of this recording. And we're excited to announce that she's expecting again. And you know, we're excited, yeah, we're excited to, to see this one, you know, go well.

And we're trusting the Lord that, you know, she will deliver probably around March of next year. And, and you know what, I was thinking about it and this child is a unique child.

It's not going to replace Christopher, but we're hoping that God will bless us with a beautiful, healthy grandchild.

Don't know if it's a boy or girl at this point and bless them with a wonderful child and that they can begin to experience all the joys of parenthood.

And that this would be the blooming of a rose out of a barren hillside, of a beauty coming out of the ashes and of a grief journey that has been years long.

And so we're excited and just trusting God that he will just continue to be with all of us as a family as we continue to navigate through the trials of life, but then use those trials to just help other people because that's what it is. We're all in this life together and we hit hard times and life I don't think was meant to be lived alone, right?

Matt: 00:51:27

No.

Dan: 00:51:27

We need each other. We need family, we need church. We need community. And what we need to do is be there for other people.

Because there's going to come a time when we're going to need people to be there for us. And if we could create that now, then I think we can live well even when life isn't going so well. And so that's really kind of where my thoughts are.

Matt: 00:51:58

Yep. Listen to my episodes with Lyndon. That's their, their goal is to help people live a hope filled life.

And you definitely shed some more light on that today. So, Dan, thank you for sharing your heart with our listeners and your story with us today.

And your courage, your compassion, they're powerful reminders that, you know, grief isn't something that we get over, but something that we walk through. And to our listeners, if you or someone that you love is struggling with depression or thoughts of suicide, you are not alone. Please seek help.

You are needed. You are loved. You are not forgotten. And I just want to make sure that you're aware of that.

If this episode moved you, please share it with someone who might need it. And as always, thank you so much for joining me on the Live well podcast.

I am Matt Wilson and let's keep learning to live well, no matter what life brings.