Finding Community and Connection in Sorrow with Dan Duncan

Matt: 00:00:00

Welcome to the Live well podcast. I'm Matt Wilson, where we talk about navigating life's biggest changes and building a healthier, wealthier, more meaningful life.

I'm your host, financial advisor, coach and business owner at my practice here at Cornerstone Wealth Services in South Bend, Indiana. And I am so glad that you're here. Today's episode is extremely personal. We're talking about grief. How to live well through it and not avoid it.

And I'm joined by my friend Dan Duncan, a pastor and a full time Army National Guard chaplain.

He's been through some incredibly hard seasons, both from personal loss and also dealing with gold star families and counseling members of the military. Dan has a heart for helping others, helping them walk through grief, walk through depression and even the darkness of suicidal thoughts.

So this one is pretty powerful. So let's get into it. So I want to introduce Dan. Thank you so much for joining me today.

And I just want everybody to know that Dan means so much to me. We've been friends for, I don't know, two decades maybe now, more than that, spending quite a time. Yeah, long time. So.

And I think the good Lord in his providence, he brought us together.

We were selling insurance at the time, and we were, you know, cold calling, as they say, and spending time together and shedding tears together, as you might do with all that sort of rejection. But that was a whole other lifetime ago. And, you know, our kids were. Well, my kids weren't even born yet at the time.

And your kids were dipping your phone and your milk in the morning. I remember that. Your poor wife. I'd roll up and, you know, we'd head out for the day. And I just remember the look.

She was like, oh, no, they were just so little. It was so much fun, though. You were such a good dad and you were pastoring, I think, at the time in South Bend, Indiana. Right.

So, you know, there's that. And you know, of course I had my degree in ministry and religion, and so I look back and I just see how the Lord brought us together.

We were each other's Jonathan to the David there, I guess I would agree. So a lot of fun stories, a lot of heartache that we've been through, but I just wanted to kind of set the table there.

And so if you could maybe, you know, further introduce yourself and, you know, tell me about your family and your work and maybe your role as a chaplain a little bit.

Dan: 00:03:00

Sure. Well, first of all, thanks for that, Matt, and it's a pleasure to be here with you on your Podcast today.

I'm excited to see what God is doing in your life. And, you know, as you mentioned, we. We go back quite a ways and we've been through the ups and downs.

And certainly you think of people in your life who, you know, have kind of been there for you and the chips are down, and you, you hope that would come from your church, you hope that would come from your family, and, and oftentimes those are good sources to find people to walk through life with you. But it's really special when God gives you a. A brother, a friend, you know, someone who can. You can call at a moment's notice and just be real with.

And particularly, you know, when you are in the line of work that I'm in as a pastor, you would think that that would give you an abundance of those type of individuals, but really, it's the exact opposite. You often are looked to the one to be the strong one, the one to carry the weight, the one to have all the answers.

And I don't, you know, I. I don't begrudge people of that. I want to be the guy people turn to. That's what God's called me to do.

And, and what I love doing is working and helping with people who are going through difficult times. But one of the, one of the unfortunate consequences of that is it can be really difficult to find someone that can do that for you.

And I can say, Matt, that you have been one of those top people in my life who have been the guy I call when I need advice or I just need to talk through something.

And I praise God for that and I thank him for the friendship that God has given to both of us as we have been able to just be men trying to serve Christ and raise our families and be successful in what God's called us to do and just support each other and help each other. So, yeah, I appreciate that as well. A little bit about myself for those listening in.

I'm going on my 30th year of marriage and we have four wonderful children. They're all grown. My two daughters doing something right. Right. None of them are in jail, so praise the Lord for that. But they're all grown.

My two girls are Anna and Lauren. They're both married. And we have two wonderful sons in laws that we love as our own sons. Alfonso married to Anna, and Caleb married to Lauren.

And then my two boys, Spencer and Wesley, are both in the active duty Army. Spencer is stationed in Schofield Barracks in Hawaii, and Wesley is in J. Bear, Alaska. And both of them are in their first contract.

Wesley just made sergeant, and Spencer's not too far behind. And then Spencer has just recently gotten engaged and will be getting married by the end of this year.

So, I mean, life change is happening all the time, and we're just excited to be in this stage of life where we can see our children grow and root them, root for them, cheer them on from the sidelines, and just hope that they have nothing but joy and happiness as they blossom and continue to grow into that which God's created them to be. So really blessed on the family front, for sure.

Matt: 00:06:35

Yeah, you're doing something right. And I think we're going to do an episode later on about launching your kids well, and I think that you would be a great fit to talk through that.

But, you know, for today's. For today's, I definitely need help on that. Of course, we're not far behind you, but we're behind you. So.

So you've got such a unique blend of roles, you know, pastor, chaplain, husband, father. I mean, how. How do you describe what you do?

Dan: 00:07:08

Well, you know, and we'll probably get into it a little more as, as we develop this podcast, but, you know, from very on in my life and in my. My faith journey with the Lord God has just given me a burden for other people.

And, you know, maybe it's a result of some of the challenges I faced in life and, and found God sustained me through that.

I thought, well, if God can sustain me, then he can sustain others, because, you know, there's nothing really super special about me other than the value God puts upon me, which I believe he puts upon everyone. And so, you know, I guess just kind of from a young age, I just felt that pull to say, hey, you know, this world can be an awful place.

I want to brighten it. I want to help people. I want to, you know, I want to be the guy that can come into a messed up situation and.

And maybe not like Superman, make it all better, because I'm not that. But just to be able to help, just to be able to show somebody that, give them a little hope, right? And show them that they're not alone. Right.

And so those are the things that I think really have kind of pulled me toward these different roles and led me toward the ministry. And then in the ministry, got to get involved in chaplain work with first responders, police and fire stations.

And then it just blossomed later in life in a time when I didn't really expect it to be able to enter the National Guard and be a army chaplain. And that was just an unforeseen chapter of my ministry that has been very exciting and fulfilling.

Matt: 00:09:01

Yeah, I guess. I appreciate that. I mean, one of my questions was going to be, how did you end up in both the pulpit and a military uniform?

Dan: 00:09:12

Yeah, well, I grew up in a military home. My father was a naval officer, and so I kind of grew up around the military flavor.

And as a young man in high school, of course, I wanted to be all I could be. I wanted to join the military, and I wanted to serve my country. I was very particular, patriotic, and. And I just.

That's what I assumed I was going to do. Of course, growing up in a naval home, it was going to be the Navy. And so I was tracking. I was trying to get into the Naval Academy and.

And figure things out. Wanted to fly airplanes. I had seen Top Gun. Right. So all of those.

Matt: 00:09:51

Yeah, same here.

Dan: 00:09:52

Right. And, you know, so that's just kind of what I wanted to do.

But then, like I said in my intro, when I was a young man, I just felt the pull to ministry. I was about 15 years old when I really felt that God wanted me to give my life to minister to people.

And the way I saw that and understood it at the time was to be a pastor. And so I remember very definitively saying, okay, I'm going to answer that call, and I'm going to forgo the military, and I'm just going to.

I'm going to focus on ministry. And I didn't look back. I was thankful for that. But I can say throughout the years, there's a part of me that missed wearing the uniform.

There's a part of me that on Memorial Day or fourth of July or Veterans Day, you know, as you'd see the flags flying and you'd watch the parades of people in uniform marching by, that, there's just kind of a sigh like, oh, man, I really wish I had that opportunity. But, you know, just. Just kept on doing what I felt God wanted me to do. But then. Then this opportunity came.

I was 45 years old, and someone said, hey, you ought to go be a chaplain in the National Guard. And I kind of. I kind of chuckled. I said, you know, you do see this gray hair. There's no way they're going to take a guy like me.

And he's like, oh, you could get a waiver. You could get in. And I'm like, really? And long story short, he. He encouraged me to talk to recruiter. I did.

I got my Age waiver in less than a week and started the path down becoming a chaplain in the National Guard.

And I tell you, I'm so grateful that he gave me that challenge and showed me how to do it, because this has just been a really exciting chapter of ministry to be able to continue to pastor my church and also step into the army and wear the uniform and help soldiers.

And that's one of the things that I found, is that maybe there's a little bit of a hesitancy in our culture today to look at the church, and that's a topic for another day of why that is and how to resolve that. But once you put the uniform on and you start walking in their world, things just open up and they begin to come and talk to you and trust you.

You know, and I'm the same guy, but that Persona is gone and that the ability to interact is there. The walls just come down and you're able to meet people where they are.

And I think some of it is just getting out of the four walls of your office or your church or your house and just getting out in the community, whether it's the military or whether it's just next door, just getting out there and rubbing shoulders with people. I think that's really what the church has been called to do. And maybe we need to find those unique ways to do that better in our society.

But that's for me, the military was an opportunity for me just to stretch my legs and broaden my horizons in ministry.

Matt: 00:13:04

I do want to give you an opportunity maybe to share with others that maybe they can contact you and talk about the pathway that they might be able to take for that.

Dan: 00:13:15

Sure.

Matt: 00:13:16

So we can maybe talk about that at the end. And I appreciate you sharing all that. I think you're 100% correct. You're a brother in the military.

I have not had the privilege of being in the military. And that's what it is, a privilege. And my dad was in the Navy. I know a lot of folks, a lot of veterans. We have a lot of clients who are veterans.

And I deeply, deeply respect the service, and I do want to talk about that.

But before we get into the veteran side of things, you know, Dan, a few years ago, your family faced a very heartbreaking life loss of your grandson just days after his birth.

Dan: 00:14:04

Sure.

Matt: 00:14:04

I just want to ask you, and as we talk about grief, what did that session or season in your life teach you about grief?

Dan: 00:14:13

Yeah. I tell you, first of all, let me say I'm still learning. And that's a lifelong journey.

And I appreciate you giving me the opportunity to tell this story because I not an easy story to tell, but it's an important story and it's a journey. Grief is a journey. And you know, I was thinking before this podcast, it's a journey, but it's not a round trip. It's a one way ticket.

And a lot of times people approach grief as how do I get back to the way it was? How do I get back to before the grief happened, before the loss took place? And there is no, that's not the goal. The goal isn't a round trip.

The goal is a one way ticket, a destination, maybe a destination to somewhere. Right now you're not even sure where that is or what it is.

But I think with courage and with faith, we can begin to believe that that journey leads to somewhere good. It can lead to somewhere satisfying, it can lead to somewhere positive. But it's an arduous journey and a difficult, difficult thing.

e were excited in the fall of: 2022

It was right around Thanksgiving and we do Christmas stockings by the fireplace and my wife immediately got another stocking for the fireplace for our grandson before he was even born. He had the fullest stocking on Christmas morning.

We were doing the traditional grandparent thing and we were spoiling him while he was still in utero.

And, you know, and we were excited about that, you know, and I can tell from my wife being a grandma was like, she was just like loving it, drinking it in. The joy, the happiness, the excitement, it was real. And we were just so excited about seeing him.

ing. And then around March of: 2023

Little started to get concerned about some things. And then that started just like a downward spiral of bad news after bad news after bad news.

And starting to think there's really something drastically wrong with Christopher is his name. And we, we started praying, asking God for a miracle.

They started to prepare my daughter for a stillborn birth, which that didn't make any sense to me. I was like, no, that doesn't happen. That's not going to happen.

Matt: 00:17:26

Right, right.

Dan: 00:17:27

And we just really started praying. And you know what? He got better. I don't really know what happened. The doctors don't really know what happened, but he survived.

And the condition that they were concerned about went away, just, like, vanished. And they couldn't explain it. And so I'm like, God gave us a miracle. I'm like, this is great. Praise God. So excited.

And then toward the end of May, he was born. And, man, he just looked fantastic. He looked perfect. His color was good. He. He wasn't on.

You know, you'd think, like, if he was really sick, he'd be on all kinds of machines. He was breathing on his own. He was looking great.

And I remember I was at a chaplain meeting with the army, and, you know, I told the chaplains, you know, they were praying, and, you know, one chaplain asked me, you know, how's it going? I'm like, man, I think God's given us a miracle here. It's fantastic. I really think he may pull out of this.

And it was that day that he took a turn for the worse. And long story short, he was diagnosed with a congenital heart defect.

And after 12 wonderful days of life, he slipped into the arms of Jesus, and we realized his body was not going to be able to sustain his life here on Earth, and we had to let him go.

Matt: 00:18:55

So hard.

Dan: 00:18:57

Yeah, that was. Yeah, it still. It still gets me. I. I think it always will. I hope it always does. Right? And, you know, that started a.

A lot of questioning, a lot of wondering, a lot of. A lot of battling, even, you know, as a man of faith. Right. You say all the right things right out the gate. I can read you a thing I wrote.

I mean, I could post it here. I'm not going to read it now, but about miracles and just. They were my initial thoughts. In shock, trying to weed through what had happened.

And being a pastor and having studied the Scriptures, I knew all the right things to say, and I said them and I believed them, and I still believe them. But what I wasn't prepared for was kind of the rug later of emotions to be pulled out from underneath me.

And I've done a lot of study through the book of Job as a result of this. And I think you see the same thing in Job's life. He loses his children, he loses his money, and he says, the Lord gives and the Lord takes away.

Blessed be the name of the Lord. And then later, he loses his health, and his wife's questioning, saying, why are you retaining your integrity?

And he says, if we receive good from God's hand, we have to receive evil. And all of those are True statements.

But as we see later in Job's life, and what I saw in my life is that it doesn't prepare you for the crushing emotions of grief that are going to come later. And I really wasn't prepared for that. And that started a huge struggle that maybe we can talk a little more about.

But in the end, I think you find that faith does sustain you through these things.

Matt: 00:20:55

I was going to ask you what helped you get through that time and what didn't help.

Dan: 00:20:59

Sure, sure. I would say what helped me was my faith, but not how I thought it would. I thought my faith was going to help me sail above the clouds.

We talk about a destination, and when it's dark and dreary and cloudy and you take off and you bust through those clouds and you see the sun shining and you're flying above the storm, we think that that's what faith is supposed to do, is make the sun come out while everything's falling apart. And it wasn't like that for me. I was not flying above the clouds. I was crawling along the ground and rolling in the mud, trying to figure things out.

But it was faith. It was like a light in the distance I was crawling toward, not the sun shining over a storm in some beautiful, serene picture.

And maybe it is that way for some people. I don't know. I can only tell my story, but it wasn't that way for me. But I remember telling a chaplain who asked me how I was doing.

He's like I told him, I said, well, my faith is strong. I said, but right now, I'm not strong. Right now, I'm in pieces. And I don't know. I didn't like that feeling. I didn't like admitting that.

But it was the truth, and it was where I was at, and I felt like I needed.

Matt: 00:22:30

And it's okay, right?

Dan: 00:22:32

Absolutely.

Matt: 00:22:32

It's okay. And do you think it just starts with just honesty about that and being the honesty of exactly how you're feeling? And I know that we have a.

There's a organization or program, I think it's called Grief Share, and I intend to hopefully have them on to dive a little deeper into that. But what can you point to that really helped during that time? I mean, was it just talking?

Dan: 00:23:05

Yeah. I would say not necessarily even talking, certainly talking for sure. But I would say community.

I would say the people that really came around me, and for me, that was the Chaplain Corps, the Army Chaplain Corps, the other chaplains I associated with, I tell you, they were the ones who reached out they were the ones that said, hey, let's go get a bite to eat. And I don't know how many times I called you and just wept on the phone or I was in a restaurant with a chaplain.

You know, people would probably try and figure out what was wrong with me because I just was trying to hold it together and couldn't. But just people just listening to me, just letting me. Letting me tell my story, letting me.

Letting me ask those questions and share those doubts and not have to be the strong one, because I wasn't at that point. I was very broken.

And, you know, that's what really helped me was a community of people who understood grief, maybe personally, but also from a counseling kind of format. They'd studied. You know, army chaplains do a lot of studying on how to do grief counseling.

But more than just trying to give me their expertise, they knew how to listen. They knew how to not rush me or push me or try to answer or fix it, but just to listen, be there.

Matt: 00:24:49

Well, and I think that just knowing that there are people there who truly care, and there's also people who've maybe gone through grief, dealt with those dealing with the grief. So I would say I would highly encourage people to not isolate. I think isolation is probably, would you agree, the death nail in all of this?

It seems that way anyway. Sure. So I appreciate your perspective on that. And I would also bring up that I think it was that same year that all four of your kids left.

Is that correct? Is it right. That next year. So, I mean, that's a different kind of grief that people deal with.

Dan: 00:25:35

Sure, yeah. I mean, it's all coming on the time where a lot of times, you know, men have midlife crisis because life is changing drastically. Right.

And you know that, that makes you. It puts you in a vulnerable place. Right. And then you get excited.

My wife and I, we kind of, when we had our children, we gave them to the Lord from the very beginning, and we said, you know, you've entrusted this life to us and we need to try to raise him and her for you. But then when they become an adult, we want to see them launch out. We want to see them go do great things.

So the last thing we want to do is try to hold him back and hold them in.

But at the same time, it is a huge identity shift because especially for my wife, who, you know, she wasn't completely a stay at home mom, she did some teaching and did some work outside of the home while the kids were young, but that was her Primary role that was her identity was those four little children that were running around the house like you mentioned, you and I would go and try to sell insurance and make a livelihood and my wife would be at home with the little ones and teaching them and guiding them and making sure they were fed and bathed and cleaned and loved. So when they leave home, you get excited, but all of a sudden the house is quiet. Then you start looking at the next chapter, Right?

And I think maybe that's why losing our grandson hit as hard as it did is that we were grieving on multiple levels. We were grieving for ourselves because a little life that we were excited to see coming in the world and be a part of was all of a sudden gone.

And then we were grieving for our daughter and our son in law who lost their first child. Right. And then you're also struggling with all of that identity shift.

And I could particularly see in my wife, the role of grandmother was like meaning and purpose. And then all of a sudden she was like, wow, what do I do now? And that was difficult to try to cope with and manage.

So all of that converging at once was particularly trying. And yet again, we thank the Lord for his sustaining grace.

Matt: 00:28:22

Well, and I think too that sometimes these things come into your life. And I just recently had something come into my life where it didn't make any sense. It was, why now? Why is this?

And I just looked at my wife and I and we just kind of said, well, we don't get it, but we're here together for each other. And she was gracious with me and I was appreciative for her. And then all of a sudden it's like, okay, we get through that.

And maybe it was just something, another thing for us to kind of walk through, to bring us closer together.

And you know, I don't know what you would say to that, how it might have affected you guys emotionally and spiritually, but you know, that is a positive. At least I can take away from the difficulty that we had to go through. But what do you say to that? I mean, did it forge you a little bit more?

And what, what would prevent that from happening?

Dan: 00:29:28

Yeah, sure, I think, you know, grief. Or maybe I should just say the loss, the loss that brings the grief is. It's not a good thing.

And I don't think Christianity is meant to say, hey, everything that happens in our life is good. I know we think of Romans 8:28 that says that all things work together for good to them that love God.

But I think it's a misnomer to think that everything that happens in a Christian's life is good. I think what it means is God can.

Matt: 00:30:02

That's a great point.

Dan: 00:30:03

God can bring good things from anything. Right. He can give beauty from ashes, but they're still ashes. So let's call them ashes. You know, let's just be real. Right, right.

Because otherwise we try to do the superficial hallelujah anyhow. And when you look in the Bible, that's just not true. One of the things I had to learn to do was lament.

And we don't do that in American culture very well. The American dream is life, liberty, and what the pursuit of happiness.

And so if something makes me happy, I'm going to pursue it, but if it doesn't make me happy, I'm going to avoid it. And that was one of the biggest struggles. It's like I didn't want to be the downer.

I don't want to be the one that brought the room down because I was going through a grief. And that's where the temptation comes to push it all down, hide from it, avoid it, bottle it up. But that's just not healthy. And that's not Christian.

Right. You go to the Book of Psalms and you hear David crying out to God, why art thou cast down, O my soul? Why art thou disquieted within me?

Hope thou in God.

Matt: 00:31:30

Right.

Dan: 00:31:30

And so here's a man who's the Bible says is a man after God's own heart, who's just crying out to God in his pain and in his suffering. And I began to learn that I'm missing a very important and fulfilling aspect of my walk with Christ.

When I don't know how to biblically lament, when I don't know where to take my pain. And a lot of times, even for church going people, if you're not careful, that makes you vulnerable to medicating your pain with sinful things.

Drugs, alcohol, pornography, adultery, different type of downward spirals. Because instead of taking our pain to God, we're trying to manage it ourselves.

And that's a route people can go down, but it's not one that's going to really give them the hope that they're looking for. And so people then get kind of caught in the middle, right? Where they're, I don't want to go that way.

But then I don't know what to do with the way I feel. I don't know, I'm just kind of stuck with this pain.

And I think What I learned is that the Bible gives an answer for it, that it's not easy, that it's going to hurt, that it's going to be hard. But instead of avoiding it, God has a way to help us face it and help us, a way to sort through it.

And it takes time, it takes patience, it takes intentionality, it takes community and a whole lot of courage. But God does have an answer. And a lot of times his answer is just trust me. Right again.

I go back to the book of Job and I think at the end of the Book of Job, Job finally realizes he's been asking the wrong question. He's been asking why, why, why? When he should have been asking who. And when he finally sees God, he says, you know what? I've had this all wrong.

I don't need to know why. I just need to know that God has me. And that's something, I'll be honest, I'm still learning. But that's little shift in focus I think is powerful.

I'm going to trust God with the why. And he doesn't even have to tell me, but I'm just going to hold on to him as he takes me through whatever it is that wants to cross my path.

Matt: 00:33:59

Yeah, as you talk, I mean, I think most people, even those that might not have the faith that you do and the background that you do, they might understand or have heard of Psalm 23. And you walk through the valley of the shadow of death. It doesn't say you avoid the shadow of death or the valley. It doesn't say that you.

It's very bright there, it's dark, it is tough.

And you know, if anybody has anything that means something to their, anybody that has somebody else that means something to them, at some point you probably will experience that. And that's just a human, this human nature. Nature and living. I was going to ask you this question. How do you personally define living?

Well, in the midst of loss.

Dan: 00:34:51

Yeah, man, I saw that question as you sent me the list of questionnaires. And that was, let me tell you, that was one I really had to chew on and think about and really started to get emotional to think about.

But before I answer that question, let me back up and echo what you said. And I understand and realize that people in their faith journey are in various different stages and working the struggle figure out some people are.

Is there even a God?

And one of the things I love to do as a military chaplain is just to meet people where they're at, not judge them for where they're at, not try to tell them they need to be like me, but just to say, hey, wherever you are, I believe God loves you, and I believe God's there for you. And you may not know that or ever agree with me on that, and that's okay.

But just understand that grief is not easy, no matter what our belief system is. But it challenges us to think about what we believe and to. And to find what's real. And that's one of the things that I found, even as a.

Not just a person in the church, but a leader in the church, is that I began to realize some of the things that I thought were true didn't hold any water. And when you came and looked at them, they were just tradition or just old ways of thinking that we assumed were right and biblical.

But in the end, they were just Christian platitudes. And that was a little rattling and unnerving.

But it helped me to come to a deeper faith and it helped me to come to, I think, a more clear, and I still am coming to a more clearer understanding of God and his Word and his relation to his people. And. And, you know, the ministry of Christ in the gospel, it's just.

Let me just say, you know, wherever you are in that journey, I hear you and I see you and be encouraged and be strengthened and let even be challenged to say what is really behind all of this. And my hope is that, you know, you would find that God is there for you, as I feel like he's been there for me. So, you know, I just.

That was just on my heart. I just wanted to say that. But getting back to your question, what is it? What does it live? What does it mean to live well in grief?

Well, that's the surprising thing because I've kind of alluded to it a little bit, but it's not what I thought it would be. Again, it's not. It's not having a faith that denies the pain. It's not a magic potion to just say, I don't need to hurt because I have faith.

No, faith. Faith is what gets you through that crushing hurt. And sometimes living well in the midst of grief doesn't look like living well.

Sometimes living well in grief is that I was able to get out of bed this morning. Sometimes living well in the midst of grief is.

I did meet and have coffee with someone and I did tell my story and I did break down and I did ask why. And, you know, I'm in that process and it's not the way I want it to be. I want to be strong. I don't want it to hurt. I want the pain to end.

But living well sometimes is living with that pain and being patient with yourself and not taking the easy way out to try to avoid pain, but to say, okay, I'm going to embrace it, I'm going to look at it, I'm going to put it on the table, I'm going to sort through it, and it's going to be agonizing, but it's what I have to do. The only way to deal with grief is to go through it. You can't go around it, you can't go under it, you can't go over it.

You can't run the other direction. You have to go through it. And living well in grief is just steeling yourself to that and saying, I'm going to take that first step.

And maybe it's a baby step, and maybe you don't feel like you're making any progress, but then you take another step and another step, you find people who can come into your life and be there for you and with you and. And you just don't give up. And I don't know, that sounds maybe a little vague and maybe, I hope not cliche, but it's really like that.

It's really a. I'm not okay for a while, and I'm okay with not being okay, and I'm just going to work through that. And, you know, I think it's. It's one of those things where it kind of rises and falls, ebbs and flows.

But I don't know if I've answered your question, but that's really what comes out of my heart at the prompting of that question.

Matt: 00:40:12

Well, I think what I hear there is just honesty.

Honesty with yourself, I think accepting and accepting the way you feel and that it may not be what you want or may not be what's ideal, and then expressing. Expressing that, finding a way to express it to others very easily, and the vulnerability that comes with that.

And there's fear in that vulnerability. So if we can overcome that fear, it's kind of like, you know, you gotta take that first step. You've gotta trust it.

I think what comes in mind comes to mind. This is maybe a silly illustration, but everybody's probably seen the Indiana Jones movie where he has to step out.

He doesn't see the bridge, but he's gotta step out. And he just does. And it's there. And, you know, he threw a few breadcrumbs to see if it was Real first or some dirt or whatever it was.

I know that might be silly, but that's what comes to mind is like, hey, you know what? There is a bridge to the other side and you've got to take that step in a safe way. And maybe his spreading of the dirt was safe.

And so maybe finding who that safe person can be, but making sure that you do find someone. Let me wrap this recording and then I'm going to come back and I think we need to unpack that a little bit and then we'll continue the conversation.

And then also let's talk through something that is very special to Dan and I think worthy of a very good in depth conversation, which is about suicide, because grief can lead to suicide. And I heard a statistic the other day that is unbelievable. And that statistic was from the FDA commissioner.

This was just, I believe on July 25th on, I think it was a business channel, he was giving an interview and he said there are 8,000 veterans a year that die from suicide and that is a problem, an epidemic.

And I would say that if we can shed a little light on that and then maybe also talk through a little bit about how to help people recognize and provide some tools. And then let's get back to what are some practical ways that we can support a friend or a loved one through grief, maybe if they're stuck in sorrow.

So let's come back and continue the conversation. I would also just encourage folks. I mean, I know this has been a little heavy at times, but I would encourage anybody that I'm here.

We help our clients navigate some of the toughest obstacles and challenges in life. And oftentimes I'm the first person that they call when they do so. I've walked people through this.

I walk with people through a lot of these things that Dan has talked about. And I am here to help. You know, financially, money isn't everything, but it is a lot like oxygen and it's a tool.

And so what we want to do is make sure that people can live well through it and maybe take some of their concerns away by providing some of the assurances that they need that they're going to be okay.

And if you're walking through grief or have lost a loved one, we want to provide some resources, which we will do in the show notes, but also we will.

I would just encourage you to contact us because if you're going through a major challenge or obstacle or have lost that loved one, then I want to be here to help you navigate that. One of my largest, I guess, groups that we serve are retired widows. And I don't think that's by accident.

I think that I can understand and having helped a lot of folks through that. So your financial life is unique and so should your plan.

So I would encourage you to reach out to me and we can discuss your situation and form a plan for you. So that's it. Go to mattwilsonfinancial.com and you can also find the podcast page there on that site.

And, and thank you for joining us today in this conversation on grief. And I would just encourage you today that you are not alone. And I encourage you also to live well until next time.